Andrew Leigh

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC CANBERRA – DRIVE WITH ROSS SOLLY
MONDAY, 22 APRIL 2024

SUBJECTS: AI SCAMS, VIOLENT CONTENT ON SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, SOCIAL MEDIA AND MENTAL HEALTH, CANBERRA TO SYDNEY RAIL

ROSS SOLLY (HOST): Andrew Leigh, good afternoon to you.

ANDREW LEIGH: Good afternoon, Ross. Great to be with you.

SOLLY: And you too. Andrew Leigh, your government has picked a fight here with Elon Musk. Are you comfortable with taking him on and demanding that he remove videos from his social media platform?

LEIGH: Look, absolutely. Being a billionaire doesn't put you above the law. And in this case, X, formerly known as Twitter, is clearly in the wrong. It should abide by the decision of the eSafety Commissioner. Julie Inman Grant is somebody with immense experience in this field, and X comes to this with a very poor track record. There's a recent report by Reset Australia which looked at the ability of these platforms to spread misinformation in one particular area that was around eating disorders and found that they weren't filtering their ads and indeed they were targeting young people with information that encouraged eating disorders. We know there's political misinformation being spread on these platforms. Simply, they can't be above the law. They need to be abiding by basic standards of decency, not making fun of Australia's content standards in the wake of two terrible tragedies.

SOLLY: Where is the line on this, though? If Elon Musk says that this is attack on free speech, that it's censorship, where do we draw the line? And is it a slippery slope? Andrew Leigh, if we sit there and say, ok, you've got to remove this, where do we go next with that?

LEIGH: I remember when we were doing this in law school, Ross, one of the classic lines was that free speech doesn't extend to the right to shout fire in a crowded theatre. There's no notion that free speech is absolute. It needs to be balanced against the interests of, in this case, the victims of these terrible crimes. We also need to make sure that we're strengthening the laws here. Our government is reviewing the Online Safety Act. We want to give more powers to ACMA to scrutinise the systems and processes to make industry rules. Hopefully, the coalition will come along with us on that. They've flip flopped a bit. They need to now come on board and holding big tech to account.

SOLLY: I will say 86% of our listeners in our poll this afternoon, Dr Leigh, agree with what the government is doing. They're saying, yes, you should be able to stand over and demand that Elon Musk remove the videos. 14% of our listeners say it is an attack on free speech. What sort of options are available to your government, Andrew Leigh? if Elon Musk decides to thumb his nose at the government and say, nope, this is staying where it is.

LEIGH: Well, he says he's going to challenge the decision in court, and we're certainly up for that legal battle. But in the broader context, Ross, we've quadrupled funding to fight scams, stood up the National Anti Scam Centre last year, and now looking at what more could be done to crack down on online scams.

SOLLY: This isn't a scam, though, is it?

LEIGH: Well, I was thinking of the issue that you were speaking about with Doctor Karl, which is a scam using his image. About three quarters of these types of scams are being perpetrated through Meta's platform. So, Meta, in thumbing its nose in Australian law, in its decision to walk away from the News Media Bargaining Code, it is really setting itself up for a fight with the Australian community. And then in the issue of the take down orders of this violent material on X, I just think that Elon Musk is again off on a frolic of his own, rather than focusing on being a responsible manager of an important platform.

SOLLY: Yeah, you may well be right, but it doesn't answer the question of what you can do as a government. I understand there is provisions there that you could fine the platform up to $800,000 a day. I'm not sure how you implement that and whether there's any, any pressure on Elon Musk or any social media platform to actually pay the fine.

LEIGH: Well, right now, we're headed towards a legal battle, according to Elon Musk. He said he's going to challenge it in court and we're up for that challenge.

SOLLY: What happens if the court says, yep, the government's right, what obligations are there on him to do the right thing here?

LEIGH: Well, there's significant fines within the bill, and that would be enforced on X, as it would on other platforms. They are not above the law. Scams and takedown orders can apply to other platforms. We have, for example, the issue of SMS scams, and we've been working very closely with telcos in order to ensure that scam SMS messages are blocked. Now, some of them still get through, but there are tens of thousands being blocked as a result of the government working with telecommunications companies there. We need to see that same constructive attitude from the social media companies. They need to recognise that they have to have a social licence to operate and they have to also recognise that in the bigger picture, they appear to be increasingly more part of the problem than part of the solution. Part of the rise of youth mental health problems, I believe is strongly linked to the rise of social media and the way in which it's been affecting the mental wellbeing of young people. So, there's problems right through society. You know, we've talked about scams, we've talked about inappropriate, violent material, about mental wellbeing. These platforms really do have a lot to answer for right now.

SOLLY: At the moment, you might be aware, the UK government is awaiting a task force report on social media and the use of iPhones, etcetera. It's believed one of its recommendations is that children under the age of 16 not be allowed access to iPhones or social media platforms. Is that going too far, do you think, or are we at this stage? And I know you've, you've had a lot, you've spoken a lot about the evils of social media. Do you think we need to get tougher and we need to find better ways of trying to before it's too late, because there is a danger that the horse may have already bolted on this, but is there more that we can do?

LEIGH: I think it's both individual action and also government playing a role. So, in our household, our rule is no smartphones before age 15. It turns out that every pay phone in Australia is free. So, that allows our kids to be able to phone home if there's an emergency, but also to have the opportunity to be kids without being constantly tied to a device. But government also.

SOLLY: Do you get blowback on that, by the way?

LEIGH: Oh, absolutely. Every day. But we have good conversations with our kids about it, speak to them about why we're trying to just make sure that their lives aren't completely consumed by the torrent of information and misinformation which flows through these social media platforms. A childhood spent riding bikes around the neighbourhood and going for a walk in the bush is a far more fulfilling childhood than one spent flicking from one TikTok video to another.

SOLLY: Just on the text line, Pete from Sterling says doesn't Musk censor any criticism of him and his companies on X? Well, he does seem to, he does seem to have a fairly thin skin when it comes to criticism of what he does himself. Bob says social media companies should be held to the exact same standards of other media and individuals in this country. Simple. Elon Musk doesn't care about anyone or anything other than the profit line, says Bob. Well, I think, Bob, Elon Musk is desperately trying to get back some of the money that he shelled out to buy Twitter. When it was Twitter, I think he might have realised that he might have spent a bit more money than what the company was actually worth.

Andrew Leigh, a final question for you. This is Martin from Chifley on another subject. I recently took the train to Sydney and it is excruciatingly slow. You wrote an article in the Riot ACT in 2017 about faster rail between Sydney and Canberra. Where is the Federal Government on this? Have you taken the train lately, Andrew Leigh?

LEIGH: I haven't, but my 14 year old took a trip up there. It turns out if you want to send a 14 year old to Sydney to spend time with their grandparents, you actually can't send them on the bus. The only way you can send them is on the train. He loved the trip. But Martin's right.

SOLLY: Hang on, just on that. Is that because you have to have a guardian on the bus with a 14 year old?

LEIGH: That's right, yes. Murrays Coaches are stricter about 14 year olds travelling than the train is. Theodore has really enjoyed his train trips up and back on a frequent basis. But Martin's right, it's too slow. It's an issue for the NSW Government and I pressed the former NSW Coalition government to invest in faster trains. Certainly I'd be very enthusiastic if the current NSW Government was to that decision. It would be an important bit of infrastructure, better connecting us to Sydney. But of course, you know, the greatest beneficiaries would be Sydneysiders who’d get to come down and enjoy the best city in Australia.

SOLLY: Often I hear Sydneysiders say, why can't I get to Canberra quicker?

LEIGH: Exactly. Take their democracy tour.

SOLLY: Yeah, exactly. Get to Canberra quicker. But we don't mind how long it takes youy to leave because we'll be happy to stay there forever. Andrew Leigh, great to chat with you. Thank you for your time this afternoon.

LEIGH: Likewise, Ross. Thank you.