JONATHAN GREEN: Welcome to you both.

ANDREW LEIGH: Good day Jonathan.

ARTHUR SINODINOS: Thanks.

GREEN: Well you're back. How does it feel?

LEIGH: Well it's exciting. Andrew Leigh here, I was particularly excited that Arthur and I got to have parallel roles once more. I think that was, of all the changes of responsibilities, the bit I enjoyed the most. The symmetry of what I think Walleed Aly called the two knights.

GREEN: Very nice indeed.

SINODINOS: Absolutely.

GREEN: Arthur Sinodinos.

SINODINOS: We're living in a parallel universe Jonathan.

GREEN: In so many ways.

LEIGH: But for me Jonathan there is something genuinely nice about shadowing somebody who personally I respect a great deal.

SINODINOS: And vice versa. Anyway.

GREEN: I'm glad to hear the love in the room. Clearly the kinder, gentler Parliament is off to a flying start. Arthur Sinodinos why can't we see the figures that demonstrate the need for this rather large lift in the debt ceiling?

SINODINOS: You will Jonathan. You will see them in the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook, which will be out before Christmas. I think the Treasurer has already been pretty transparent about the reasons for this. I think Labor, when it put down its last budget in May, should have been prepared to have another debate on the debt limit then and raised it then. And the reason we're raising it now, is because we need to accommodate, on Treasury advice and the advice of the Office of Financial Management, is the increase in debt that's required given the budgetary settings that we have at the moment and to take into account potential fluctuations in the amount of debt that will be needed to finance Government activity within the year as well. The advice…

GREEN: Andrew Leigh, wouldn't you like to see that financial update before you vote on this debt increase?

LEIGH: That's absolutely our position Jonathan. Somebody last year put the argument as follows, he said: "our money, our future is too important to be mortgaged like this without the Government giving us the strongest possible arguments for it." That's Tony Abbott speaking about the debt limit increase, which the Coalition opposed. We are happy to support a debt limit increase, which covers where debt was expected to peak on the last budget update. If Mr Hockey thinks that debt is going to peak at a higher level, if the decisions he's made is going to push us past that, then I think the Australian people are entitled to some information. It's a bit like if you're asking for an increase in your credit card limit, well the bank's going to want to see some evidence of how you're going to repay the debt and why you need that. This is a bit like going to the bank and expecting a low doc mortgage.

GREEN: This is a problem is it not, that, Arthur Sinodinos, you're arguments of May last year around this specific issue are now coming back to bite you.

LEIGH: Jonathan, I need to excuse myself, there is a division in the House. I am sorry. Apologies for slipping out. The respect I spoke about for Arthur now extends apparently to him taking both sides of this debate. I'm sorry, but I do have to go.

GREEN: Andrew of course you're excused. Arthur you now have the floor unimpeded.

SINODINOS: No look, Jonathan, there is complete transparency around this and you will see it all laid out in the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook. The point I would make, is that we had asked, at the time of the last budget, that if there were to be a debate around this we'd need all the information. The Government should have been prepared to raise the debt limit then. The advice we received on coming to Government is that the debt limit should go up. 450-460 was the amount. The Treasurer decided that by going to 500 he would obviate the need to come back, hopefully within this term of Government.

GREEN: And yet you did argue pretty strongly, you know, in the middle of last year, against an increase for the previous Government. As Tony Abbott said then, the Government should be forced to specifically justify this, not just sweep it under the carpet and allow it to go through in the appropriations. I mean you're asking this of the Opposition now, are you not? To approve the increase, no matter how reasonable, but to approve that increase ahead of the information that would justify it.

SINODINOS: Jonathan, I think Andrew is able to come back so we'll have a proper debate. But to your point, the justification will be fully laid out in the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook. There is no point doing this in dribs and drabs and the Government should have taken responsibility for doing this in May, they weren't prepared to, they didn't want to have another debate on debt. We're happy to have another debate on debt this week, next week and right up until Christmas, because that will focus on how we got to a debt of $300 billion in the first place.

GREEN: The problem there for you Andrew Leigh, is, you know what I mean, there is a sense that this is the Labor Government legacy, is the debt of this extent.

LEIGH: Jonathan, certainly Australia has a level of debt, it's a modest level by developed country standards. I suspect pretty much any economic policy maker in another developed country would happily take on our level of debt rather than theirs. We took that on in order to save jobs. But the Coalition, since taking office, has added to that debt and that's what we want more information about. So, some detail on why it was necessary to give another $9 billion to the Reserve Bank, about whether now is really the right time to be giving a big tax break to mining billionaires. So some of that sort of information, I think it would be useful to have on the public record before Parliament votes for what is really a massive increase in the debt ceiling, 66%.

GREEN: And apart from debt, Arthur Sinodinos, as Andrew Leigh points out there, the $8 billion, the Reserve Bank is building into what's going to be a steadily increasing deficit as well.

SINODINOS: Look, in relation to the Reserve Bank, they were very happy for us to put another $8.8 billion in at the beginning of the term to replenish their capital. It's an investment in them being better able to deal with economic and financial volatility in the global economy over the next little while. Their capital had been run down, they were uncomfortable about providing, I think, the last dividend to the Labor Government. So they were very happy to have this infusion and I think it took some courage on the part of the Treasurer to be prepared to wear this increase of 8.8 billion now, in order to give them that comfort. And most Australians, I think, would say it's better to be safe than sorry and rather than do things under the pressure of a crisis, have that money in the bank as it were and have the Reserve Bank ready to deal with whatever might come our way.

GREEN: That outlook is looking a little (inaudible) isn't it? I mean we've got debt increasing, the possibility of stronger deficits, we're sacking, well not, removing numbers in the public service, the potential for the pulling out of subsidy to the auto industry, the signs aren't, well they're not bullish, are they Arthur Sinodinos?

SINODINOS: Look Jonathan, on that front, there is a balancing act here. We do need, I think, to get the public sector into better shape. A lot of the budget challenges are medium term challenges, particularly in the second half of this decade, as we start to pay for the ramp up in the National Disability Insurance Scheme, as there are further payments on education, as the impact of aging of the population further increases, health and age spending. There are all these drivers around, which are going to be causing the budget to deteriorate further over that medium term period. So in a sense the budget emergency that we spoke about before the election, there is a short term impact, but there is a medium term impact as well and it's very important for us to start to address that, but to do it in a way, which doesn't put the state of the economy at further risk, in a context where unemployment is edging up and growth has been below trend. And you're right, business and consumer confidence has gone up since the election, but we need to build on that, we need to rebalance government spending with a greater emphasis on investments and infrastructure and get proper controls over the other elements of government spending.

GREEN: Are you confident Andrew Leigh that the Government can pull off that tricky balance?

LEIGH: Well Jonathan, I certainly agree with the goals that Arthur is talking about, but I do think that we differ on how to get there. I for example would think it's important not to take away the Mining Tax, a tax which has been put in place during a period in which there has been unprecedented level of investment in the mining industry and where you've got $4 billion of revenue, which are pretty important to Australians. I'm not sure it's an appropriate time to be putting in place an extremely expensive parental paid leave scheme, which unlike the present system gives the most to those who have the most. Yet at the same time you've got the Coalition effectively cutting income support, taking away the Schoolkids Bonus and you've got the Prime Minister's handpicked advisor Maurice Newman questioning whether or not initiatives such as disability care and better schools should go ahead and whether perhaps Australian wages are too high. I think that that low wage road is the wrong one for Australia to go down. I certainly for one, would prioritise the most disadvantaged Australians ahead of the mining magnates.

GREEN: And I wonder Arthur Sinodinos what we ought to do about foreign investment. We had the decision today from the Treasurer on Warrnambool Cheese and Butter. GrainCorp, is that decision on Warrnambool concern an indicator of the Government's attitude to foreign investment that might also apply to GrainCorp?

SINODINOS: I think Jonathan, both the Prime Minister and the Treasurer have made the point that we look at these on a case by case basis. If you go back to the Howard era, pretty open attitude to foreign investment but there were cases like Shell and Woodside, where that takeover of Woodside wasn't allowed to happen. In Labor's time we had the Singapore Stock Exchange takeover, which was not allowed to happen. So there are circumstances in which on a case by case basis you have to judge whether a particular proposal is contrary to the national interest or not. So I can't comment specifically on the GrainCorp one, but as a general proposition, on both sides of politics, I think, there is strong support for continued foreign investment in Australia. And if I look at the agricultural sector for example, it's quite clear, foreign investment will be crucial to developing that potential we've got, including in the north of the country.

GREEN: Andrew Leigh..

LEIGH: I think…

GREEN: Go on then.

LEIGH: I was just going to say Jonathan, I think Arthur is exactly right in terms of the importance of foreign investment and agriculture and you just need to go back to companies like CSR and look at the importance of Japanese investment in the beef industry. I do worry though that with this decision it's getting too much caught up in internal politics between the Liberal and National Party, with Warren Truss suggesting that the Australian Stock Exchange will fall over if a company that constitutes 0.2 per cent of it becomes foreign owned, Barnaby Joyce threatening to throw a dummy spit and Joe Hockey responding that he won't be bullied by anyone. This isn't, this doesn't bode well for the Government making these decisions in a mature, sensible fashion that put the national interest first. And I fear we might for example get to a place where Mr Hockey wants to please both sides and ends up putting in place an approval with so many conditions attached that effectively it's a rejection.

GREEN: I must say gentlemen that if your conduct between each other this evening is any guide, we can in fact look forward to a more civil and considerate Parliament.

LEIGH: Thank you Jonathan and my apologies from my end for mistaking an adjournment for a division, which you're parliamentary wonkish friends will appreciate.

GREEN: Rookie error Andrew, rookie error. Thank you both for your time and …

SINODINOS: Thanks.

GREEN: Good wishes to you both for the coming engagements.

ENDS

BREAKING POLITICS

FAIRFAX VIDEO

MONDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2013

Subjects: Asylum seeker stand-off with Indonesia, Warsaw Climate Change Conference, Grain Corp takeover.



TIM LESTER: There is debate about how many times it has happened in recent days but no debate over the fact that it is happening. Indonesia is turning back asylum boats that the Abbott Government would like our near neighbour to take. What does this say about the Abbott Government's asylum policy going forward? Every Monday Breaking Politics is joined by the Labor MP in Fraser, Andrew Leigh. Welcome in Andrew.

ANDREW LEIGH: Thanks Tim.

LESTER: First, does Indonesia's stance on tow-backs surprise you?

LEIGH: Not in the least Tim. This is what Labor has said for upwards of a year would happen. The Indonesian Government has been firm and consistent in their position on Mr Abbott's tow-back policies. That's why before the election he conspicuously failed to raise it with our Indonesian colleagues. I think calling the Government's asylum seeker policy ‘shambolic’ is probably being too generous. We're now learning more about what Australian navy vessels are doing through the Jakarta Post than we are through the official briefing from Mr Morrison. It appears now that the reason he wants a General to stand next to him is so that he can shield behind that General and refuse to answer questions. And, as to the ‘buy-back the boats’ policy, we've heard precious little of that in recent times. It's really disappointing Tim. This is a vital relationship for Australia. We must treat our Indonesia colleagues with respect. They are the fourth-largest country in the world; a very important relationship for Australia being dealt tremendous blows by the toing and froing, the back and forth that is this Government's asylum seeker policy.

LESTER: Tremendous blows? Is the damage to our relationship with Jakarta really that bad?

LEIGH: I think it is Tim. I think it is. The relationship with Indonesia is a vital one but you can see, reading the accounts in the Indonesian media, a real concern that the Australian Government is not treating Indonesia with the respect to which it is entitled. Policies like the boat buy-back were very worrying to Indonesia as were suggestions of payments being made directly in Indonesia for intelligence tip offs. These things would be deeply offensive to us were our Indonesian neighbours to suggest them in their political system.

LESTER: For all of this the Immigration Minister, Scott Morrison, is at least at the moment able to say in his briefings is that the trend is in the right direction, that numbers of asylum boats and asylum seekers are reducing. We're heading in the right direction, at least the policy at the core of this, is being achieved isn't it?

LEIGH: Since Labor put in place the Refugee Resettlement Agreement we've begun to see a decline in asylum seeker boats and frankly I don't think there's anything that the Coalition has put in place since winning office which could reasonably be said to have contributed to that. The turn-back policy clearly is having no effect because it isn't taking effect. The buy-back policy has been hidden and I don't think anyone believes that Scott Morrison hiding from the media is having any impact on asylum seekers coming to Australia.

LESTER: The Australian this morning reports that Cabinet has decided that there will be no new agreements for the Australian delegation going to the Warsaw climate change meeting; not allowed to enter new packs of any sort. How does that strike you?

LEIGH: It's a bit of a worry to me Tim. We are the 12th largest economy in the world. We are important nation on the world stage. Now, thanks to Labor, with a seat on the U.N. Security Council and the G20 meetings happening in Australia, we ought to be holding our heads up tall in any international negotiation - sending a delegation of appropriate seniority, which isn't happening, and treating other countries with respect and being willing to listen to their views and adapt ours in response.

LESTER: Appropriate seniority, you say, would be Greg Hunt going, the Minister, or...

LEIGH: ...I certainly believe it's either appropriate the minister or the parliamentary secretary attend these talks.

LESTER: The Minister is of course has got what he considers rather pressing matter of repealing the carbon tax this week, hasn't he?

LEIGH: Well, the Minister has gotten himself into terrible strife with his international counterparts. He's attacked the U.N.'s climate change chief, using Wikipedia has his main source to critique her and he's simply been unable take a stance which meshes with what's happening globally. Globally we're seeing over 30 countries putting in place emissions trading schemes. The Chinese city-wide emissions trading schemes are likely to be nation-wide after 2020. Australia has a system that's working to reduce carbon emissions. We're already seeing it having that effect. As the world's largest per capita emitter, why would you trash a policy that's working and go for a short-sighted policy that ends in 2020 and won't do the job.

LESTER: Because the electorate has told you do it, might be the answer from the Government and this week they introduce the legislation to scrap the carbon tax and you will sit in parliament with your Labor colleagues and effectively ignore the expressed will of the Australian people won't you?

LEIGH: Tim, I campaigned in the last election for a cap on carbon pollution and that's what I will do after the election. Mr Abbott might be prepared to behave like a weather vane to swing with whatever strategy he thinks best suits his political fortunes.

LESTER: He's swimming with the mandate isn't he? That's the point?

LEIGH: As am I Tim. I campaigned in the last election for a cap on carbon pollution and on the floor of parliament I will vote for a cap on carbon pollution. If Mr Abbott had behaved in the way I intend to behave in 2007 then in 2009 he would have voted for the same emissions trading scheme that he campaigned for in 2007. Mr Abbott's on the record of, at one stage, being correct in this debate, saying that an emissions trading scheme was a low cost way of reducing emissions. But he'll swing whichever way he thinks gets him the largest political advantage. I'll vote for what I think what's best for the Australian people and the planet.

LESTER: The Government, indeed the Federal Treasurer, has to make a decision on the potential foreign takeover of Grain Corp, the giant grain handler by December 17. Is this off/on, black/white decision?

LEIGH: It's not Tim. Foreign investment decisions are made typically with some conditions. My concern here is that having kicked the can down the road, having pushed the decision nearly to Christmas, that the Treasurer is looking now to make a decision which is going to satisfy his National Party colleagues by putting so many conditions on the sale that ultimately it's unworkable.

LESTER: Because the Nationals, of course, don't want the sale at all.

LEIGH: Well, Warren Truss has been quite clear that he thinks the Australian stock market will fall over if 0.2 per cent of it is purchased by Americans. Mr Hockey has pointed back, nobody, nobody, nobody will challenge him or bully him. So this is breaking out into a full-on war within the Cabinet. My concern is that ultimately where they land will be based more on politics than on good economics or based on making it look like Australia is open for business where in fact, putting so many conditions on the sale, that ultimately it can't go ahead.

LESTER: And what will that say if they do go down that track. What will that say about whether Australia is open for business or not?

LEIGH: Well, it would suggest that Mr Hockey was more concerned over the politics of foreign investment than making the right decision. If Mr Hockey wants to stymie this decision by placing so many constraints on it that the sale can't go ahead, then he might as well simply oppose it. But it's going to hard for him to [approve it] because his National Party colleagues, Barnaby Joyce, Warren Truss are very much in the fortress Australian mentality.

LESTER: So, to close, if you were in the Treasurer's chair and having to look at this, you'd give it a tick without conditions?

LEIGH: We'd make the decisions based on the national interest Tim. But this is a decision squarely for the Government. This isn't a decision the Opposition makes. Mr Hockey makes it and I think it's perfectly reasonable for us to talk about the pressures, challenges and the importance of him making a decision that's in the national interest.

LESTER: Andrew Leigh, welcome back to parliament this week and we'll look forward to talking to you again next Monday.

LEIGH: Thanks Tim.

Media Release

Sunday 10 November, 2013

GST HIKE ON MOBILE HOMES BAD NEWS FOR LOW INCOME AUSTRALIANS

Assistant Shadow Treasurer, Dr Andrew Leigh, has raised concern about a new draft Australian Tax Office ruling that could see thousands of mobile home owners face higher rents.

The ATO has issued a draft ruling on the Goods and Services Tax (GST) paid by park owners managing properties where mobile homes are based.

The draft ruling, now out for consultation, will mean park owners are slugged double the GST paid on leased sites.

“Labor is concerned the ATO ruling would not just lead to higher costs for park owners but that those costs will be passed on to low-income Australians who permanently live in demountable or mobile homes.”

There are at least 3,000 Australians living in mobile homes in privately run home parks.  There are many more people living long term in mobile homes in caravan parks.

“Most people living permanently in mobile homes either as a lifestyle choice or as a last resort live in very basic conditions with minimal facilities and few amenities compared to conventional forms of housing. Many are pensioners and families doing it tough,” Dr Leigh said.

“Labor MP Justine Elliot has already spoken out about the impact of this draft ruling on her constituents on the NSW north coast. But we are yet to hear boo from the Coalition.”

“I call on the Abbott Government to explain whether it supports the ATO’s ruling.

“It is a concern given the skewed values and priorities of the Abbott Government which favour the most affluent, and hurt the most disadvantaged.” Dr Leigh concluded.

ENDS

SKY AM AGENDA WITH DAVID LIPSON

SATURDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2013

David Lipson: Joining me in the Canberra studio by the shadow assistant treasurer Andrew Leigh. Thanks for your time today.

Andrew Leigh: Pleasure David.

Lipson: Let’s start off where we finished with Josh Frydenberg, the public service cuts. You’re a Canberra MP, how significant is the impact be on the Canberra economy. We knew this was going to happen but now it’s being put into practice.

Leigh: Well we knew it was going to happen David but it’s going to be pretty significant. Contrary to what Mr Frydenberg said, growth in public service numbers during Labor’s term in office matched population growth, the number of public servants per head didn’t change since the end of the Howard years. But what we have seen now is savage cuts; we’ve seen the incorporation of AusAID into the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade being done in a terribly ham-fisted way. AusAID workers being brought into the DFAT atrium like cattle, made to stand on the ground floor while the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials look down and one of those DFAT officials mimed machine gunning those AusAID workers. Now were learning the new graduates for AusAID who had signed contracts with AusAID, and in many cases turned down other offers, in fact won’t have their jobs in February. So it’s being done in a terribly messy way -

Lipson: - that corralling is not the government’s fault, that seems to be a departmental issue doesn’t it?

Leigh: I think it ultimately does go back to the Minister, I think you need to recognise if you’re going to shut down an agency like AusAID and brutally incorporate them in to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade with no proper change management process, no looking after the employees, that’s really going to hit people hard. We are seeing in CSIRO up to a quarter of the workers whose jobs are in jeopardy. This is the organisation that invented the polymer bank note and wi-fi, and perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised that a Government without a science minister wants to slash the CSIRO but it’s deeply disturbing none the less.

Lipson: The reason the Government is doing all this, and as I said they did say they would do this before the election, the reason they are doing it is to draw down the debt, to get the budget back into a decent financial position, because of the huge debt that was left to this Government by Labor.

Leigh: Huge debt is completely wrong David. If you look across the developed world Australia has one of the lowest debt levels. We took on that debt in order to save jobs. If you think we should have no debt, effectively someone who says that is believing we should have had higher unemployment in the crisis. So we have a modest level of debt, but if you want to bring it down you need to do things like keeping in place revenue measures. If you’re going to give a big tax break to millionaires and billionaires though the mining tax, if you’re going to give money back to big polluters by getting rid of the carbon price, if you’re going to insist on maintaining tax breaks for people with $2 million in their superannuation accounts, well then yes you’re going to have to hit middle and lower Australia hard. Public service cuts are just a part of that. They’re taking away the Schools Kids bonus at the start of next year, taking away income support payments - effectively a cut in the unemployment benefits. Inequality is going to rise under this Government and that’s a concern to many Australians.

Lipson: On the asylum seeker stand off on the coats of Java, the Government says the important thing is that the boats are stopped and they are stopping. There have been no arrivals this week, and I think there was none last week or one. Do you agree with the Government the important thing is stopping the boats?

Leigh: I think the Refugee Resettlement Agreement is having an effect as Labor said it would after we put into place. It’s a firm policy but our view was that if we accompanied it with an increase in the humanitarian intake that was overall a decent thing to do. The Coalition is cutting back on the number of asylum seekers and then throwing a veil of secrecy over asylum seekers – as they are in so many other areas of Government. Australians are frankly entitled to know if naval ships are being used to intercept asylum seeker vessels. They would have been told that under Labor. Just put the boot on the other foot, just imagine what Scott Morrison would have said if Labor in office had been refusing to release details of an asylum seeker stand-off on the high seas. These are our tax dollars that go to fund these naval vessels; we have a right to know how they are being used.

Lipson: The Government is reigning in MPs entitlements, or at least just tightening up the system, we don’t have the exact details yet, but do you welcome this move?

Leigh: I certainly do, I think the abuse of entitlements we’ve seen now with a quarter of cabinet having used taxpayer funds to attend weddings is a concern. One of the interesting questions for me will be whether these new rules will for example allow something like what Mr Abbott did of using taxpayer expenses to fly to attend a sporting event and a party-political fundraiser or whether perhaps a trip which just includes a sporting event and a fundraiser is off limits under the new rules. That will be a challenge he will face given that so many of his cabinet members are embroiled in entitlement misuse and that many members of the Liberal party are refusing to pay money back, Phillip Ruddock and Bronwyn Bishop refusing to pay back the costs of attending Peter Slipper’s wedding.

Lipson: Next week on of the first pieces of legislation that will be introduced, not just the carbon tax, but this legislation to repeal the racial discrimination act section that found Andrew Bolt guilty, what’s your view on that?

Leigh: The Prime Minister says this is about free speech but really this is about hate speech. Labor believes that hate speech ought to be banned. This is a provision that isn’t used very often but past cases in which it’s used for example include vilification of Jewish Australians, denying of the Holocaust and the vilification of an Indigenous woman. This is a provision which is I think is important to a tolerant and multicultural Australia. I agree with Colin Rubenstein when he says that this is important in maintaining tolerance and acceptance for Jewish Australians. Mr Abbott doesn’t believe in free speech under all circumstances - he’s a defamation plaintiff in the past. But somehow he thinks it’s okay for him to use the defamation law but for others not to have hate speech laws to use.

Lipson: Andrew Leigh we’re out of time, thanks for your time.

Leigh: Thank you David.

1. Are the redundancies currently being offered in various departments part of the Government’s plan for 6000 job cuts this financial year, or are these additional cuts?


2. Will there be any forced redundancies, including in those departments affected by Machinery of Government changes?


3. Will the Government increase its public service job cuts target or introduce forced redundancies if the Commission of Audit recommends it should?