The Hon Andrew Leigh MP
Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC RADIO CANBERRA, BREAKFAST WITH ROSS SOLLY
WEDNESDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 2026
SUBJECTS: 2025 PISA results; Middle East conflict; Social media algorithms; Digital Duty of Care; Delivery of election commitments
ROSS SOLLY: Andrew Leigh is not only a lexiophile, but he's also a prolific author. He's managed to somehow churn out several books while also acting as the Member for Fenner and Assistant Minister, etc. Andrew Leigh, good morning to you.
ANDREW LEIGH: Good morning Ross, great to be with you.
ROSS SOLLY: Good to have you as well. Do you have any thoughts on why – this national report which came out overnight, which has shown that here in Australia, Andrew Leigh, unfortunately we're not making any progress. In fact, we might be going backwards when it comes to our kids' reading and learning maths, etc. The OECD is saying there's too many distractions and that's the number one problem, and AI-generated chatbots and stuff like this is just making it too hard for kids to do the stuff that we might have done in our time?
ANDREW LEIGH: This decline is long-standing. Chris Ryan and I documented a drop from the 1960s through the 1990s, and then that's been picked up in the PISA drop now, which sees students one to two years behind where their counterparts were in the start of the millennium. Part of it is attracting and retaining great teachers. We need to do a better job of ensuring that teaching is an occupation that is attracting top-flight teachers. I think Teach for Australia does this brilliantly and I know the Education Minister has been really focused on trying to ensure that teaching has the standing it needs in the community.
ROSS SOLLY: Yeah. One of the things apparently Jason Clare is looking at, and maybe he's close to making an announcement, is to once again turn the whole thing on its head, and he says Australia should follow the UK's lead in mandating old school explicit instruction teaching methods, Andrew Leigh, and phonics-based reading to turn around Australia. I mean, for some reason we walked away from that. Is it time to revisit it?
ANDREW LEIGH: Yes, I think it is. And Jason Clare has been very clear that England mandated phonics in schools in 2006. They instituted a mandatory year one phonics check in 2012 and they're now seeing the gains from that. We're doing the same thing, but we're starting behind. The reading wars have had an impact on reading scores. We've also been working in the area of maths to implement some of the similar changes that the UK put in place when they changed their curriculum in 2014 - so, we've got a maths curriculum that is grounded in evidence.
ROSS SOLLY: Speaking of following the lead of the UK. Overnight, the UK, you would have heard, Andrew Leigh, has gone the full monty in terms of sanctions on illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank. There's a whole heap of countries who have signed up to either support them or are doing similar, including France, Canada – a whole heap of countries throughout Europe. We haven't. Should we?
ANDREW LEIGH: Well as you know Ross, we've done an awful lot in order to target settler violence. We've imposed targeted sanctions and travel bans on Ministers, on extremist settlements and on entities and those sanctions have significant consequences for their economic dealings. We've said businesses shouldn't bid for construction tenders for illegal settlement developments. But our view at the moment is that the blanket-style import ban is something which could have unintended consequences for Australian businesses, for Palestinians and for Israelis.
ROSS SOLLY: So I mean, the UK has obviously – you would have thought they might have done their research on it. France and Canada, they seem to think that this is a problem worth having to deal with. What have you picked up that maybe the UK has missed out here?
ANDREW LEIGH: Well, the end goal is a two-state solution. That's why we've recognised Palestine. That's why we've been clear that we'll pursue further targeted measures in co-ordination with some of those key international partners. The Netanyahu Government such actions in the West Bank are potentially extinguishing the possibility of a two-state solution.
ROSS SOLLY: Yeah.
ANDREW LEIGH: We've seen flagrant settler violence and we've seen the proposed E1 settlement development. We do know that we need to curtail those actions. The question is, what is going to be the best international effort to secure a ceasefire in Gaza and advance a two-state solution?
ROSS SOLLY: So, why have the UK got it wrong then, do you think? Why have they gone too far?
ANDREW LEIGH: Well, you'd have to ask them that. Our…
ROSS SOLLY: But you think they've gone too far, Andrew Leigh?
ANDREW LEIGH: Our view is that there are potential unintended consequences of this blanket ban…
ROSS SOLLY: Such as?
ANDREW LEIGH: Well, potentially cost to Australian businesses, to Palestinians and to Israelis who are caught up in this. So, we've taken a wide range of measures. We have been very clear about our support for a two-state solution.
ROSS SOLLY: But that's what trade sanctions do anyways. There's always going to be innocent victims when you bring in trade sanctions?
ANDREW LEIGH: Well, we have targeted sanctions in place, Ross. What we haven't done is put in place this blanket ban. As the Foreign Minister has said, we've been focusing our sanctions on the financial and economic dealings with those individuals and those entities who we have seen as being most closely tied to the expansion of illegal settlements and the settler violence in the West Bank.
ROSS SOLLY: Alright. Let's turn to the digital duty of care, which we’ve now got a discussion paper out there, you've got the basic outline for what you want to do. I know Andrew Leigh, you and I have spent many, many days talking about the balance – to getting the balance right. Critics are saying this digital duty of care, where people will have the ability to opt in or opt out of the algorithms, they're saying this is a breach of freedom of speech, that people should be entitled, you know, that this is people's rights that you're taking away from. You are also a champion of free speech. Are you comfortable with these laws?
ANDREW LEIGH: Absolutely Ross. And I think it is a bizarre argument to say that people having the choice of their social media algorithm is somehow an imposition on their free speech. People will be able to choose to have exactly the same algorithm that they have now, in which you're effectively not getting the content of your friends, you're getting ‘best of the internet’. But people will also have the opportunity to choose to see content from their friends, from local businesses, from their local community.
Social media has become a lot less social. It's just a change in the last few years. It was led by TikTok and then the other platforms saw the engagement TikTok was getting and shifted their algorithms accordingly. So, you saw Instagram, Facebook and X move towards this ‘best of the internet’, which is really the things that the algorithm determines are best and that turns out to be the angriest of the internet. So, if you post a sporting clip saying ‘Good defensive effort’, then it might get 1,000 shares. If you post one that says ‘Worst referee decision ever’, it might get 10,000 shares. The algorithm isn't specifically targeting anger, it's just learning from our behaviour in order to feed up angrier and more divisive content.
ROSS SOLLY: These laws though – I hear what you're saying Andrew Leigh – but these laws, though do give extraordinary powers, though, to the Commissioner, I guess by extension the Minister as well, to deem, you know, let's just say it might not be too much further down the track when Ministers could actually try and stop a political party, for example, for sending around a meme or something that the government of the day might find offensive? I mean, we're not a million miles away from that, are we?
ANDREW LEIGH: Ross, we're putting in place limits on what the content that can be fed to under 18s. That content that's being fed to under 18s at the moment includes content that's promoting or encouraging unhealthy eating behaviours, pornography, content that glorifies crime and misogynistic attitudes to women. So, there will be limitations on what's fed up to under 18s. But for over 18s, this is simply a question of choice. This is simply a question of being able to choose to opt in to what it says on the tin.
These companies are advertising themselves as ‘social media’, but in fact what they're serving up is anything but social. Your friends are disappearing from your feeds and being replaced by angry memes collected from across the internet designed to drive extreme extremist views about gender attitudes, about sport, about fitness, diet. It is an unhealthy ecosystem for our society to be operating in and one which is fundamentally anti-social.
ROSS SOLLY: 12 to 9. Just before I let you go, Andrew Leigh. Kristy McBain told us this morning there were eight projects in her electorate that were invited to apply for funding under the major and local community infrastructure program. David Smith told us yesterday there was one in his electorate. How many in the electorate of Fenner?
ANDREW LEIGH: Look, I think there were three, Ross but I'd have to check with you on that. I think Margaret Timpson Park was one of them. You know, this is really an approach which is aimed at delivering on Labor commitments. It's an approach which follows the Commonwealth Grant Rules and Principles, the recommendations of the Joint Committee on Public Accounts and Audit and all of the projects…
ROSS SOLLY: Yeah but when the Liberals and Nationals did this though, Andrew Leigh, you were all yelling out ‘Pork-barrelling’ because it was only projects in their electorate or seats that they wanted to win that were getting the funding. And you all cried outrage and disgrace and Bridget McKenzie lost her job, et cetera. What's the difference here? Because basically if you're in a safe Liberal seat, you're not going to get it. You're not even going to be asked to invite to apply for funding. You're not going to be invited to apply for funding?
ANDREW LEIGH: Ross, most of the money that goes out is through open competitive grant programs. This is a one-off program which was aimed at delivering on election commitments in the 2025 election.
ROSS SOLLY: Yeah, but they're commitments which only go into your – 73 per cent of them go into electorates either held by the Labor Party or that you wanted to win. It's taxpayers' money in the end, Andrew Leigh. So, you know, maybe people who aren't in safe Labor seats think that they might be deserving of an opportunity for their local golf club to apply for some money as well?
ANDREW LEIGH: Ross, there wasn't an application process as there is with a typical grants program, as there was with some of the programs you saw under the Coalition. This is really a program set up under the Commonwealth Grant Rules and Principles to deliver on Labor's election commitments in the 2025 election. It's nothing more complicated than that.
ROSS SOLLY: The three – you said you believe there were three in your electorate. So, you had no role? Because Kristy McBain did say that she got to nominate which projects in her electorate should be invited. Were you not part of that process?
ANDREW LEIGH: My recommendation to the Minister was that they contact the ACT Government and see what the priorities were for the ACT Government. I was keen to work…
ROSS SOLLY: But they were election promises, Andrew Leigh, so surely there were promises that you made?
ANDREW LEIGH: We ended up making those promises. But my recommendation through the process was that we should be supporting the ACT Government's infrastructure priorities. That was the best way of delivering for the people of Fenner.
ROSS SOLLY: So, they weren't even election promises then, in Fenner?
ANDREW LEIGH: We announced them before the election. But in terms of the selection of the projects, my view was that I shouldn't be handpicking projects. That I should simply be referring to the most proper process, which is what are the infrastructure priorities where we can best help the ACT Government deliver projects that might not otherwise have been delivered, or where we can help deliver them quicker.
ROSS SOLLY: Okay. Andrew Leigh, appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.
ANDREW LEIGH: Thanks Ross.
ROSS SOLLY: That's Andrew Leigh, the Member for Fenner on ABC Canberra Breakfast.
ENDS