The Hon Andrew Leigh MP
Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury
Assistant Minister for Employment
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
2CC, CANBERRA WITH STEPHEN CENATIEMPO
THURSDAY, 17 APRIL 2025
SUBJECTS: One-person Fenner election debate, Albanese Government investments in Canberra, Peter Dutton’s plan for public service cuts, Robodebt, AUKUS, independents, Labor’s competition policy reforms, community engagement in Fenner
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: Time for the fight for Fenner - our candidate debate, which is now going to take on a very different feel. We were going to have a debate between the sitting member Andrew Leigh, the Labor Member for Fenner, and the Liberal candidate for Fenner, Bola Olatunbosun who has just had a family emergency and has had to leave us, so Andrew Leigh is with us. Andrew, I guess it's just you and me debating like we do on a Tuesday?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: I think that's right Stephen, and if I lose this debate I'm in real trouble.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: Yeah, well especially considering that I'm not running against you. So, look the way we usually do this is I give the candidate a one minute opening statement. So, I'll do that as well. I’ll give you a minute to, you know, state your piece and then we'll talk about some various issues.
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: Well, Stephen, as we talk about in our regular chats, Labor is making a case for a stronger Canberra, one in which we're making strong local investments. We've invested in Margaret Timpson Park, invested in keeping bulk-billing at the Interchange Practice in Tuggeranong, we've invested in local roads and rail, and we've also invested in a strong public service. The public service can't be the size it was two decades ago with the National Disability Insurance Scheme that serves half a million people, with complex defence procurements and with all of the challenges we face around the world. And so, the real choice for Canberra is over a Labor Government with a Prime Minister who lives here and loves the city, and an Opposition with 41,000 public service jobs to go. They say all in Canberra, which would mean you'd be cutting almost two thirds the public servants who work in this town. That would not only gut the public service jobs, but also local businesses as well.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: I want to address that because the public service now, even if you agree that the public service needs to be the size it is, it can't be a Ponzi Scheme to prop up the local economy. That seems to be an argument that people are using at the moment. If all these public servants go, it'll affect the ACT economy. Surely that's a problem with the economy, not the fact that public servants are here, we've got to be a little bit more diverse than that, don't we?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: You set the public service so it's right for the nation, not right for Canberra.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: Exactly.
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: What we what we saw over the time the Coalition was office, is total departmental spending went up 35 per cent and the number of public servants went down 4 per cent. How do they cover that shortfall? They hired a whole bunch of consultants and contractors. We got rid of that shadow public service workforce. We hired regular public servants. We brought down the backlog of veterans processing claims, paid parental leave processing times and we right-sized the public service for the 21st century.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: But let's talk about that. Because doesn't use of consultants and contractors allow you flexibility, because there are going to be times where you don't need full-time people in all of these jobs 24 hours a day?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: There’s always a role for consultants and contractors doing temporary work, where you don't have the expertise in the department. But you don't want to be bringing in consultants and contractors to do everyday policy work or to manage frontline services, and that's what we had under the Coalition. And when they didn't do that, you had the Robodebt Scandal, where you were basically outsourcing the job to machines, and you had the terrible results you saw out of Robodebt.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: But that an interesting point though, because Robodebt in and of itself – it wasn't that the concept was bad, it was that the execution was bad.
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: Well, the way in which the Robodebt system worked was you took the human out of a loop. You had letters being sent out without a person checking over them. That was how it was designed. It was designed with very big budget savings in mind when Scott Morrison was Treasurer at the time, and the result can be seen in the human toll - including the suicides that resulted out of that, as the Royal Commission recounted.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: You mentioned the NDIS and the increase in the size of the public service since Labor came to power three years ago. We are talking about an increase of 41,000 people. I mean, that's a lot of people for we, the taxpayer to be paying for. But beyond that, when the government talks about employment figures and the number of jobs created. Now, I always argue that governments don't create jobs - business does. But in this case, it is actually the government that created these jobs because they're either public service jobs or public service-related jobs. That's not a way to run an economy?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: You need the right number of public servants for the nation. So, the Coalition was running a public service which was effectively frozen at 2006 levels, despite the fact that the population had grown by 6 million people. We created the NDIS and we'd set up the AUKUS deal. There was a whole lot of complex work going on, which they were sending off to consultants and contractors. They weren't saving money for Australian taxpayers, they were costing more because that shadow workforce cost more than regular public servants.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: But when you talk about something like AUKUS, don't you need that specific expertise that wouldn't exist in the - well, I don't think it would exist in the public service in this current form. Because we're talking about something completely new that we've never done before?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: That's right, and so we've brought in a whole range of experts in order to make that work. You want those people sitting in government able to assess the complicated defence procurements that are going on.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: So, what happens to those people? God forbid it doesn't happen, and I don't think it will but let's say the erratic nature of the Trump Administration means that AUKUS falls over, then what happens to these people?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: I don’t think that's a hypothetical we're entertaining Stephen.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: Well, absolutely. But yeah, a lot of people would say that it's probably not as hypothetical as we might have thought a year ago.
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: You certainly know that the demands from the government are going to change, and you adjust the workforce accordingly. But I think systematically moving to a model where you just have these arbitrary public service caps in place -an arbitrary freeze. You know, I was talking to people in departments through the period of the former Coalition Government and they were just saying ‘we have to hire the workers, but we have to take them on as consultants and contractors, because the Coalition has set this arbitrary public service cap’. It was more expensive for the nation. Service times blew out. You had those 42,000 veterans’ claims waiting two years to be processed. None of that is good public policy, and that's the world Peter Dutton would take us back to.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: No, but in fairness though, that backlog wasn't just as a result of the previous government - that's been a problem that's been there for decades and still hasn't been fixed in all fairness.
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: We've processed 97 per cent of those veterans’ claims, and we've got the average times for processing veterans’ claims down substantially as a result of hiring more permanent public servants to deal with those claims.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: I want to talk about Canberra specifically and the view that people, and there's been a lot of talk about Canberra bashing lately, and I know that as local candidates you've been jumping onto that narrative because it suits you. But there is a reality that Canberra as the nation's capital is not a microcosm of Australia. How do we address that? How do we make the nation's capital more representative of the nation?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: I don't know if any city is a microcosm of the country. Every city has its unique qualities, but Canberrans show a greater degree of altruism if you look at the donation statistics, a greater level of volunteering. We are a city which has a really strong sense of community. That's one of the things I treasure as a local MP. There's a lot of thriving community groups. When I go out to the Men's Sheds in Belconnen or Hawker, when I see the work that's being done on the BAPS Community Centre or the Hindu Temple and Cultural Centre, the work of FINACT and the engagement with local community - all of those thriving local organisations are something I think we can be really proud of, and which is part of a real Australian spirit of pitching in for your neighbours.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: As you know, I'm no fan of the ACT Government.
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: I have heard that from time to time!
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: Yeah, most people have. Look, there's been an argument from the ACT Government, particularly under the previous federal government that because we've got a Liberal Government up on the hill and an ACT Government here, we can't talk to them and we don't get the funding that we deserve. I don't buy into that. I think governments of different stripes should be able to talk to each other. Since the Albanese Government has come to power, it hasn't improved from what I've seen and I now see a few sort of federal funding announcements being made in the lead up to the election which people are always going to be sceptical of. I'm almost going to defend you here but correct me if I'm wrong…
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: Don’t do that Stephen, you’ve got a reputation to uphold here!
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: I know, I know! People will think ‘what am I doing here?’ Correct me if I'm wrong. And I say this all the time, that the ACT Government needs to come to the federal government with a plan and say, ‘this is what we want to do, this is why we need the money’. But we're now seeing money handed over without even a business case?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: Well, we do work very closely with the ACT Government, and in having Katy Gallagher, a former Chief Minister as the Finance Minister, you've got somebody who is as well placed as anyone could be in the federal government to engage with the ACT on all their future work. So, when we're making announcements around road spending, around the continuing duplication of the Barton Highway, investment in Gundaroo Drive and the Monaro Highway, all of that is done in co-operation with the ACT Government.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: Well, let's talk about Katy Gallagher for a moment because we've seen in the in the last Senate race, we saw David Pocock elected as an independent. We're now seeing independents running, I guess emboldened by that in the Lower House seats. What do you put that down to? I mean, David Pocock would say that, you know, there's been a lack of investment in Canberra. He said that about the previous government, and he's now saying that about this government. As Labor members and members of the major parties, how do you defend against that? And what is your argument against the independents running in these seats, saying that they can do a better job than you can?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: I joined the Labor Party in 1991 because I wanted to be part of a party of government, because I believe that making change involves being part of the movement which can hold the Prime Ministership and sit on the Treasury benches and really make change. Independents can give terrific speeches, but it's governments that change lives. And what we've done in the ACT has been a massive program of investment. You look at the National Security Precinct, you look at the work that's being done on the War Memorial, you look at the investment to come at the Aquatic Centre and the Convention Centre, the significant investment in the next stage of light rail. All of that is investments that you see under a Labor Government, which I don't think you'd be seeing under a Coalition Government.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: Well, the War Memorial funding was under a Coalition Government, so I'll call you out on that one. But let's talk about you Andrew. Andrew Leigh, the Member for Fenner. What is your legacy? Why do you deserve to be re-elected as the member for Fenner?
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: I've engaged very much with communities. I've been the Assistant Minister for Charities in this government, so I've had the charities portfolio for the Labor Party since 2013. That community engagement is really important to me, building up the strength of the local organisations - whether it's Scouts, Guides, Rotary, Lions or engaging at a local community level - is something I've been very proud of. Nationally, I've worked on our competition policy reforms: getting Australians a fairer deal at the checkout and farmers a better deal from the supermarkets. Those competition reforms have been seismic. The biggest competition reforms in 50 years, a significant shake up of the merger laws and now moving towards banning non-compete clauses so Australian workers can move to better jobs. I've worked on multinational tax, I've worked on high quality evaluation, but I take the local grounding in everything that I do on the national stage.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: Well, Andrew, now that I've completely trashed my reputation by going easy on you; the best of luck. Thanks for coming in and we'll talk again next week.
ANDREW LEIGH, MEMBER FOR FENNER: Yes, looking forward to it.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, 2CC: Catch up with you then, good on you. Andrew Leigh, the federal Member for Fenner, and the Labor candidate running for this – well what was going to be a debate which I guess was just a very kind and gentle debate between me and him.
ENDS