SUBJECTS: Social media age limits, Food and Grocery Code of Conduct review, Supermarket Competition, National Competition Policy
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO (Host): All right, time to talk federal politics with the Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury and Member for Fenner, Andrew Leigh. Good morning, Andrew
ANDREW LEIGH: Good morning, Stephen.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: I want to talk ‑ a question without notice, the social media ban that's being promoted by the Government, and from what I understand the Coalition is on the same page here, you're one of the more intelligent people in Parliament so I want to talk to you about this. You've all got it wrong. You're not listening to the right people and not listening to the experts who actually can fix the problem now without legislation and protect kids right across the country, like they're doing right across the world. And there are Australian companies that are world leaders in this, and for some reason our politicians don't want to talk to them.
ANDREW LEIGH: Well, Stephen, I'm not sure what solution you'd put in place that would not involve the social media companies. Everything I've seen ‑‑
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Well I can explain it to you, and I've had the experts explain it to me. There is a level of protection available in the major platforms like Microsoft, Google, et cetera, already, that enterprise customers and big businesses have access to, but mums and dads don't. It would take a simple line of regulation in the ACCC Act to actually make these companies turn that on for everybody, and it would allow parents to protect their kids on all platforms, not just social media, from pornography and every other pervasive thing online, and it can be done with a click of the fingers. But the very people that can do this, there's a company here in Australia that has 24 million kids under protection across the world. They're writing the European Commission's policy for them, and our Senate Committee won't even talk to them.
ANDREW LEIGH: Well, Stephen, enterprise management is comprehensive, it's not straightforward. And certainly the way of ‑
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Well the experts say it is.
ANDREW LEIGH: ‑‑ too tough. I haven't seen good evidence that that would be straightforward
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Because you're not talking to the right people, Andrew. That's what I'm trying to say here, and I'm not having a go at you personally. I'm just trying to get through to you because you're one of the smarter ones there.
ANDREW LEIGH: Well it's very kind of you to say, Stephen. I don't know, I think if this was the magic bullet then countries around the world would be doing it.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: And they are. They are. We're not.
ANDREW LEIGH: Well I haven't seen evidence that countries are moving towards an enterprise management approach. I understand what you're saying. It's a bit of a niche issue. Certainly the enterprise management of my phone through the Parliament system is a pretty complicated way of doing things. There's an awful lot of tech boffins sitting at the other end in order to manage it the way they want.
What we're trying to do with the social media age limit is to put in place something that's straightforward for parents, where they don't have to do the level of complicated management that I think would be involved with the sort of idea you're talking about.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Yeah, but you can't police it.
ANDREW LEIGH: Well they're looking at various ways of doing that, and one of them is device‑based authentication, another is making sure that there's appropriate penalties in place. We do understand that the social media platforms are making huge amounts of money out of Australians, and they have an obligation to do the right thing.
There's bipartisan support for social media age bans. It's something that is the number one barbecue stopper when I chat to parents.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Yeah, and Andrew, I agree, all your hearts are in the right place. I'm not suggesting there's any malice involved here. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that there are experts out there who want to come to you and say, "Look, there is a better way to do this" and they're being ignored.
ANDREW LEIGH: I think those committees are engaging broadly. I know Michelle Rowland is engaging broadly. I don't think anyone's being turned away with ideas. But I also think that if this was simple then other countries around the world would have jumped on the simple solution.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: And they are, they are jumping. And that's the point, Andrew. And I can tell you that the fourth biggest organisation in this space in the world is an Australian company and they've been blocked from presenting to the Senate Committee.
ANDREW LEIGH: Stephen, I admire your persistence on this issue. I do think that this is probably not going to be the magic bullet. It may well play a part, and I'm sure that the Committee and Michelle Rowland will be happy to engage with anyone who's got useful ideas on this.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Alright.
ANDREW LEIGH: What we're keen on doing is getting a solution that works for parents, that is straightforward and gets rid of what is a huge point of angst between parents and kids. You know, a huge number of parents say that they have cried in dealing with their kids' device use, that they regret giving their kids a smart phone.
This is a major contributor to youth mental health problems, which we've talked about before, which is why we're working through to get a solution that works for everyone.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Yeah, and I understand all that, but putting an age limit on social media accounts is not going to solve any of that. The angst is still going to be there. The fights between parents and kids is still going to be there.
ANDREW LEIGH: It extends childhood. We have a rule in our household that you don't get a smart phone until you're 15. That doesn't stop fights after 15 but it certainly limits the intrusion of smart phones into our kids' childhood. And what we're trying to do as a government is to find an appropriate limit on social media. The challenge is if you don't have a legislated limit then you have a kid who's the last one to get on to social media and who's feeling a bit socially ostracised because all of their friends are on it. Whereas if there's one nationwide limit, that makes those conversations between kids and parents easier.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: All right. I'd like to talk to you off air about this because there are other options, as I say, that I think, you know, politicians right across the board are refusing to acknowledge.
Now I want to talk about this supermarket competition consultation paper that you put out. Tell us about that and what's the aim here?
ANDREW LEIGH: Well we want to make sure the Food and Grocery Code of Conduct is working for farmers. Right now the voluntary code that was set up by the Liberals and the Nationals just isn't working, it isn't delivering for farmers. We've seen too many instances of farmers going out of business, claiming that they're just not getting a fair shake of the stick when it comes to dealing with big supermarkets and the big processors.
So the Food and Grocery Code of Conduct under Labor will be a mandatory code, it will have serious penalties. That flows from the review that was done by Craig Emerson. We'll be out soon consulting on a specific Code before getting that into place.
We want to make sure that families get a fair deal at the check‑out, but we also want to make sure that farmers get a fair deal when they're dealing with big supermarkets.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Again, the key with these policies, Andrew, is, and I believe everybody's heart's in the right place, but it's where the rubber hits the road and whether or not it's just going to be rhetoric or make real difference. I mean how do you identify that farmers are being unfairly targeted? And look, I'm the first to say I don't think there's any price gouging going on from the consumer perspective, but the farmers are certainly getting a raw deal. I don't think there's any question about that. But proving it's going to be the hard part.
ANDREW LEIGH: Yeah, I mean the previous Code really was just rhetoric, you know, when you've got something that isn't enforceable then as a farmer you're going to be pretty loath to step up and say, "Hey, I'm being ripped off". You might well lose the main supermarket you're supplying to, and you don't have any appropriate recourse. Whereas now a mandatory Code with penalties means that farmers are going to be more willing to speak out.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Is there any consideration to I guess creating a more level playing field for smaller operators in the retail sector? And I don't mean smaller supermarkets, but I mean, you know, your local greengrocer, your local baker, your local butcher, the kind of people where we should be shopping. What sort of policy is going to be put in place to make sure that they don't suffer from predatory pricing and predatory behaviour from the supermarkets?
ANDREW LEIGH: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean a lot of this comes down to planning and zoning, which is why we've got national competition policy revitalised again. We're getting States and Territories on board to put in place long‑term competition reforms, and a part of that is making sure that when States and Territories are zoning land they're thinking very hard about what that means to competition. And they're vigilant to things such as land banking, not allowing some of the majors to lock up all of the usable land. And also in terms of if you've got a shopping centre, that the rules around that shopping centre allow a fair degree of competition within the shopping centre. All of that's about making sure that the butcher or the baker, maybe even the candlestick maker, gets a fair deal.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Yeah, do we still have candlestick makers?
ANDREW LEIGH: I don't think we do, mate, no. It's a bit like lighthouse keepers.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Indeed. Andrew, good to talk to you, we'll catch up in a couple of weeks.
ANDREW LEIGH: Likewise, thanks Stephen.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Andrew Leigh, the Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury and the Member for Fenner.