Andrew Leigh

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

VB              Van Badham

Guest         Questions from the audience

VB              He describes himself as a democracy enthusiast, and I’m a democracy enthusiast. I think democracy’s great. I think without democracy, people like me never get to go to university. That without democracy, there’s no safety. There’s conscription, there are these Russian kids who currently are on the frontline in an imperialist war. That’s the cost. And democracy requires not only internal vigilance, but the point is participation, and the point is to do as much as you can.

AL               Welcome to The Good Life: Andrew Leigh in Conversation. A podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We’ll chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, do take a moment to tell your friends or give us a rating. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   This week’s episode is something a little different. In front of a live audience at the Australian National University, I speak with playwright, author and activist Van Badham about her new book, QAnon and On: A Short and Shocking History of Internet Conspiracy Cults. I hope you enjoy it as much as we did.

                   Well, thank you very much, Colin. As you did, let me acknowledge we’re meeting tonight on the traditional lands of the Ngunnawal people. [Non-English]. And I want to acknowledge any indigenous people present tonight.

                   There is a conspiracy to educate the Canberra public in new books and Colin Steele is at the heart of that conspiracy. He is the Q of the conspiracy, and we are much the better for it. So, Colin, thank you for all that you do with new books [inaudible].

                   And it’s an absolute treat to be here with Van Badham, playwright, political campaigner and author, to talk about QAnon and On. Van, I want to start with the broad issue of conspiracy theories. Why are humans drawn to conspiracy theories?

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

HG             Heather Garriock

RC              Rob De Castella

SR              Sue Read

HG             I was a brat of a kid, to be honest, and it was hard lessons learned. And I had a lot of older players in front of me that guided me and mentored me so I was lucky from that perspective.

AL               My name’s Andrew Leigh, and welcome to The Good Life, a politics free podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers about making the most of this one precious life.

                   If you like this podcast please take a moment to tell your friends or rate us on Apple Podcasts. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation. Let me start by introducing our panellists.

                   Sue Read has competed nationally in weight lifting, discus and javelin. She’s a former Matilda’s goal keeper and founded Life Unlimited Psychology, which works with high performance sports people.

                   Rob de Castella is Australia’s greatest ever marathon runner whose 207 is still the Australian national record and he’s founded the Indigenous Marathon Foundation, leadership programme for Indigenous Australians.

                   And Heather Garriock is the Coach of Canberra United who has had a successful career as a mid-fielder playing 130 matches for the Matilda’s, Frey Olympics and Frey FIFA World Cups.

                   I want to start with childhood sporting experiences and of our panellists, Sue, I think you have had the earliest intense experience of sport. Tell us what was like when your parents discovered that you were a pretty good discus thrower?

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

TF              Tim Flannery

TF               As the Climate Commissioner, my job is to go out and talk to average Australians about this. So we held town hall meetings around the country. And I would’ve met 10,000 to 20,000 Australians face-to-face in audiences and answered their questions and engaged with them respectfully. And I came away with a very, very deep respect for the common sense of the average person in this country.

                   And that’s something again, it was a bit like meeting these indigenous leaders, these great people, something that changed me forever, and I really do have great faith in people and their ability to discern what needs to be done and what’s right.

AL               My name is Andrew Leigh, and welcome to The Good Life, a politics free podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full, with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We’ll chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers, about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, please take a moment to tell your friends or rate us on Apple Podcasts. Now sit back and enjoy the conversation.

TF               What kind of mammal do you get if you cross Crocodile Dundee with Charles Darwin, Indiana Jones with David Attenborough? Why, it’s Tim Flannery, of course. Mammologist, palaeontologist, environmentalist and Australian of the Year, Tim began his career as an adventuring researcher. He’s discovered dozens of new kangaroo species in Australia and mammals in Melanesia. For seven years, Tim served as Director of the South Australian Museum.

                   Then, at the turn of the 21^st century, Flannery made the transition from studying fossils to looking at the impact of fossil fuel. With his 2005 book, The Weather Makers, he began to focus on the urgent challenge of climate change. In 2007, he moved to take up a Professorship in Climate Studies at Macquarie University and then headed the Federal government’s Climate Change Commission and then, after it was scrapped, the non-profit Climate Council.

                   Tim has written around 30 books and starred in a series of adventure documentaries with John Doyle, ranging from Two Men in a Tinnie to Two Men in China. He now lives in Melbourne, where he works at the University of Melbourne’s Sustainable Society Institute. He is, quite simply, Australia’s greatest environmentalist. Tim, welcome to the podcast.

TF               Thanks so much, Andrew, and thanks for that very generous introduction. It was a big call at the end. I think there’s many, many great Australian environmentalists, but nevertheless.

Speaker Key:

TC              Tim Costello

AL              Andrew Leigh

TC              I’m not an academic and a great thinker. I think the heart sees often before the head sees and understands. Certainly, in my experience that’s true.

AL               My name’s Andrew Leigh and welcome to The Good Life. A podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. While I’m a politician and an economist, this isn’t a podcast about politics or economics. It’s about living a good life, which is an idea that goes back to the Greek philosopher Aristotle.

                   What Aristotle meant by good life was the life that one would like to live. A life with pleasure, meaning, and richness of spirit. A life that most of us were trying to live until everything else got in the way. In this podcast I’ll seek out guests, not because they’re smart, but because they’re wise. I’ll speak with writers, athletes and social justice campaigners. With people who’ve been lucky, and those who’ve experienced hard times. I’ve found their stories fascinating, and I hope you do too.

                   To see Tim Costello in Parliament House is to witness a man struggling his way through a storm. Invariably Tim is accompanied by a minder who is trying to take him from one meeting where he’s running late to the next meeting. And that’s because everybody in Parliament House has something to say to Tim. Whether it’s people on the progressive side of politics who see him as a role model, a voice for the less powerful, or people on the conservative side who knew his brother, Peter Costello, during his 11 years as Australia’s treasurer.

                   Tim Costello was the minister of Collins Street Baptist Church for 11 years, the CEO of World Vision for 14 years. He’s now taken up the newly created role of World Vision’s Chief Advocate. His new book is Faith: Embracing Life’s Uncertainties and Mysteries and he joins us on The Good Life podcast today. Welcome Tim.

TC              Thank you. For a politician you’re a great broadcaster.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

TH              Tayla Harris

TH              I reposted the photo with a very blanket statement saying, my hamstring is okay but sexist and derogatory comments aren’t. And I think people, without even knowing what I was talking about, literally agreed. And they just, you know, hear, hear, say it for the people in the back.

AL               Good day, and welcome to The Good Life: Andrew Leigh in Conversation, a podcast about living a happier, healthier, and more ethical life. Our society puts a lot of emphasis on smarts, but not enough on wisdom. So this podcast seeks out wise people who can share their insights on passion, grit, love, and empathy. We’ll discuss everything from sport to parenting, and hear the stories of some of the world’s wisest souls. If you enjoy the podcast, let your friends know, so they can share the insights. Now, let’s dive in to today’s conversation.

                   Tayla Harris is one of Australia’s most successful athletes. She plays centre half forward for Carlton, and has played in the AFL Women’s All Australian team. She is the Australian female boxing champion in the middle weight and super welter weight categories.

                   But she’s perhaps best known for a photo taken of her on 17th March 2019, showing her a meter off the ground, leg extended. If you’re like most of us, you probably saw that photo and thought it was pretty great. But a small number of people used it as a chance to troll Tayla.

                   She, for her part, turned that into a teachable moment, even writing a children’s book, More Than A Kick, which came out this year. Partly as a result, 23-year-old Tayla is now one of Australia’s best-known sportspeople. Tayla, thanks so much for joining me on The Good Life podcast today.

TH              My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Speaker Key:

RH              Ryan Holiday

AL              Andrew Leigh

RH              Festina lente, which just means make haste slowly. Sometimes the fastest way to get somewhere is by slowing down a little bit. Slowing down a little bit being balance, not rushing things, having some of that moderation, is often the fastest way to get where you want to go.

AL               Welcome to the Good Life, Andrew Leigh in conversation, a podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full, with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We’ll chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers, about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, do take a moment to tell your friends or give us a rating. Now sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   Ryan Holiday just might be the world’s best-known promoter of Stoicism. He’s authored around a dozen books with titles such as Ego is the Enemy, The Obstacle is the Way, and Courage is Calling. Ryan operates the Daily Stoic podcast and runs a bookstore in Austin, Texas, where he lives with his wife and their two sons. Ryan Holiday, thanks so much for appearing on the Good Life podcast today.

RH              Thanks for having me.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

TW             Terry Waite

TW             One of the things one’s attempting to do in a situation like that is to maintain that inner harmony, or develop that inner harmony, to stop yourself from fragmenting within. And good language, like good music, has the capacity to breathe harmony into the soul.

AL               My name’s Andrew Leigh, and welcome to The Good Life, a politics-free podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full, with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers, about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, please take a moment to tell your friends or rate us on Apple Podcasts. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   Terry Waite has led an extraordinary life. Born in 1939, he grew up in the small town of Style, in Cheshire. Rejected from the British Army because of an allergy to their uniform dye, he instead joined the Church Army, serving as a lay member of the church. He worked in Africa, where he witnessed the Idi Amin coup in Uganda and became a hostage negotiator. After successfully assisting with the release of hostages in Iran and Libya, he was deceived by Hezbollah and held as a hostage in Lebanon for five years. During that time, he was tortured and held in solitary confinement.

                   Released in 1991, Terry  has written several books, including Taken On Trust, Footfalls in Memory, Travels with a Primate, The Voyage of the Golden Handshake and Solitude. He devotes himself to three causes. International development, helping the homeless in Britain and assisting families of people held hostage. Terry, welcome to The Good Life podcast.

TW             Thank you very much.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

MT             Michael Traill   

MT              The constant question for me is how do you live a life that’s grounded in values of purpose. And it took me a while to sort out how to play that.

AL               My name’s Andrew Leigh, and welcome to The Good Life, a podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. Although I’m a politician and an economist, this isn’t a podcast about politics or economics. It’s about living a good life, which is an idea that goes back to the Greek philosopher, Aristotle. What Aristotle meant by a good life, was the life that one would like to live, a life with pleasure, meaning and richness of spirit. A life that most of us were trying to live, until everything else got in the way.

                   In this podcast, I’ll seek out guests, not because they’re smart, but because they’re wise. I’ll speak with writers, athletes and social justice campaigners, with people who’ve been lucky, and those who’ve experienced hard times. I’ve found their stories fascinating, and I hope you do too.

                   Michael Traill has an unusual ability to span worlds. I first got to know him while attending the Centre for Independent Studies Concilium events, where I felt like I might be the only non-libertarian in the room, until I met Michael. Trained at Melbourne University and Harvard Business School, Michael was recruited by David Clarke to work at Macquarie Bank. Macquarie, known as the Millionaire’s Factory, was a place where people worked on big corporate deals, and well-remunerated for it.

                   But in 2002, Michael shifted from the world of money to the world of philanthropy, becoming the first head of Social Ventures Australia. He’s just written a book about his life, called Jumping Ship. So let’s use that as our jumping-off point today. Michael, you start your book, Jumping Ship, with the story of Paddy, and 11-year-old player in the Willoughby Wildcats. Can you tell me the story, and why it was an important turning point for you?

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

NN              Nyadol Nyuon

NN              And I think part of the reason why I had so much anger was that I had created an unrealistic, but comfortable, dream that, because of what I had gone through, that somehow I was going to be cut a slack by life at some point. But it won’t. The future is still as uncertain and as full of potentials of beauty and ugly and pain for me as for anybody else.

AL               Welcome to The Good Life: Andrew Leigh in Conversation, a podcast about living a happy, healthy, and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full, with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We’ll chat will musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers, about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, do take a moment to tell your friends or give us a rating. Now, sit back, and enjoy the conversation.

                   Nyadol Nyuon was born in a refugee camp in Ethiopia, and grew up in another refugee camp in Kenya. She came to Australia as an 18-year-old, and has quickly become embroiled in the conversation over racism in Australia and the role of African Australians in building the nation. She’s been a regular panellist on The Drum and Q+A, received a slew of awards, and is about to shift from being a commercial lawyer into heading the Zelman Cowan Centre at Victoria University.

                   She is perhaps one of the youngest guests I have had on The Good Life podcast, and it’s a real honour to be speaking with her today. Nyadol, welcome to The Good Life podcast.

NN              Thank you very much. Thank you. I’m really happy to be here.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

NJ              Natalie Jeremijenko

NJ              The world is complex but understandable. And every single delightful moment I think communicates a sense of you’re okay. You can keep going.

AL               My name’s Andrew Leigh and welcome to The Good Life. A politics-free podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full, with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers, about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, please take a moment to tell your friends or rate us on Apple Podcasts. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   In 1959, CP Snow wrote an essay titled Two Cultures, bemoaning the gap between science and the humanities. Seven years later, a woman was born whose life work seemed to be about proving him wrong. Natalie Jeremijenko was born in Mackay, Queensland, in 1966. The second eldest of ten children, she grew up in Brisbane, where she cofounded the Livid Festival, which ran from 1989 to 2003.

                   Natalie holds a startling array of degrees, including bachelor’s degrees in biochemistry and physics, a master’s in English, and she’s done PhD work in neuroscience, computer science and mechanical engineering, graduating with at least one doctorate.

                   In the 1990s, Natalie moved to the United States, working as an artist-in-residence at Xerox PARC in Palo Alto. She now divides her time between Barcelona, New York City and Hanover, New Hampshire, where she’s an associate professor of art and art education in New York University Steinhardt School, and artist-in-residence at Dartmouth College.

                   Natalie’s kind of a mad scientist. A maverick environmentalist. And a radical artist. She’s the kind of person who plants trees upside down, sets up systems that allow us to communicate with birds and fish and creates feral robotic dogs. She is quite simply one of the most unusual and fascinating people I’ve ever met. Natalie, welcome to The Good Life podcast.

NJ              Wow, thank you. I’ll try and be fascinating and unusual.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

MD             Michelle de Kretser

MD             Short stories are a sprint. A novel is a marathon, and you kind of need to live in the work and with the work. Because I find that when I start out, I have a vague idea of where I’m going, but a lot of things come up in the course of writing, and that’s because I am immersed in the world.

AL               Welcome to The Good Life, Andrew Leigh in Conversation, a podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We’ll chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers, about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, do take a moment to tell your friends or give us a rating. Now sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   Michelle de Kretser was born in Sri Lanka and moved to Melbourne at the age of 14. After graduating from her undergraduate degree, she completed a Master’s Degree in French Literature in Paris and began a PhD at the University of Melbourne, where she was one of the founding editors of the postgraduate journal Antithesis and a founding editor of the Australian Women’s Book Review.

                   Michelle subsequently worked for nearly a decade as an editor for Lonely Planet and set up the company’s office in Paris. She published her first novel at the age of 42 and has since written five more. Michelle has won a slew of awards, including the Miles Franklin Award and the Christina Stead Prize for Fiction. She now lives in Sydney, and her latest novel is Scary Monsters. Michelle, welcome to The Good Life podcast.

MD             Oh, thank you so much, Andrew. I’m so pleased to be talking to you.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

RB              Rosie Batty

RB              So I think that that’s the difficulty. Is, the onus of responsibility seems to imply that the women should leave and fix the problem by getting out of the situation. Rather than the perpetrator of the violence taking responsibility and actually changing their behaviour and learning how to make different choices.

AL               Welcome to The Good Life: Andrew Leigh in Conversation. A podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We’ll chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, do take a moment to tell your friends or give us a rating. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   Rosie Batty is Australia’s best-known family violence campaigner. Her work began in 2014 after her 11-year-old son, Luke Batty, was murdered by his father, Greg Anderson. Less than a year after Luke’s murder, Rosie was named the 2015 Australian of the Year. Rosie’s autobiography, A Mother's Story, tells about her childhood in the UK, and the violence that Greg Anderson subjected her to, as well as what she’s gone on to do following that horrendous incident. Rosie, welcome to The Good Life podcast.

RB              Thanks, Andrew. Nice to be here.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

MN             Manny Noakes

MN             We once did some interesting maths in Australia, the weight gain over a decade and what that meant in excess kilojoules and how many people that could feed, and it turned out to be several million people for a year.

AL               My name’s Andrew Leigh, and welcome to The Good Life, a politics-free podcast about living a happy, healthy, and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and woman who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full, with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We’ll chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers, about making the most of this one precious life.

                   If you like this podcast, please take a moment to tell your friends or rate us on Apple Podcasts. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation. Two thirds of Australian adults and a quarter of children are overweight or obese. Half of us don’t do enough exercise, nine in ten of us don’t eat enough vegetables,

AL               In 2005 the CSIRO published the Total Wellbeing Diet what they said was a scientifically proven diet for Australians. Their diet book has since sold more than a million copies knocking Harry Potter off the bestseller list and winning the World Food Media Award. But the diet was not without its knockers, including a critical editorial in the journal Nature. Still, it’s fair to say that it’s Australia’s most popular diet today.

                   The principal author behind the Total Wellbeing Diet was Dr Manny Noakes, Senior Principal Research Scientist in the CSIROs Nutrition and Health Program, with 200 papers to her name and an H index of 44, just trust me that’s impressive. Manny has three CSIRO Medals and serves on numerous expert government committees. We’re here to talk about eating well, a critical aspect of a good life. Manny, welcome to the podcast.

MN             It’s a pleasure.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

MC             Maile Carnegie

MC             If you just go back and say, how do most humans, when is the time that they are the most productive in terms of their learning new things? It’s when they’re playing.

AL               My name’s Andrew Leigh and welcome to The Good Life, a podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. While I’m a politician and an economist, this isn’t a podcast about politics or economics. It’s about living a good life which is an idea that goes back to the Greek philosopher, Aristotle.

                   What Aristotle meant by good life was the life that one would like to live. A life with pleasure, meaning and richness of spirit. A life that most of us were trying to live until everything else got in the way.

                   In this podcast I’ll seek out guests not because they’re smart but because they’re wise. I’ll speak with writers, athletes and social justice campaigners, with people who’ve been lucky and those who’ve experienced hard times. I’ve found their stories fascinating and I hope you do too.

                   Maile Carnegie was born in Hawaii to American parents and moved to Australia at the age of four. Over an extraordinary corporate career, she’s worked at Procter & Gamble in marketing design for two decades, as the CEO of Google Australia from 2013 to 2016. And is now the group executive of digital banking at the ANZ where she gets to deal with challenges such as FinTech and an increasing political conversation about banking.

                   We won’t touch on the politics or policy issues today though. The reason I’m interested in talking with Maile is because she’s one of the most interesting corporate executives in Australia. Somebody who seems, at least from the outside, to have nailed the work life balance thing. Who seems to constantly have a smile on her face and who was recently named one of the coolest people in Australian tech.

                   Maile, thanks for taking the time to join me on The Good Life podcast today.

MC             Very happy to be here.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

DS              Dovid Slavin

LS              Laya Slavin

DS              As we grow up the question is, do we remain big children and just scream for different things? Or do we start to think where am I needed? Not what do I need but where am I needed? What can I contribute?

AL               My name is Andrew Leigh and welcome to the Good Life, a politics free podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full, with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We'll chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast please take a moment to tell your friends or rate us on Apple podcasts. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   Born in New York in 1965, Rabbi Dovid Slavin came to Australia first to get married in 1991 and then to settle in 1992. He operates Our Big Kitchen. A massive kitchen operation in Bondi which distributes around 80,000 meals a year to the neediest Australians. He's also a chaplain in the New South Wales ambulance service. Works to find bone marrow matches for people recovering from leukaemia. Operates a school and a synagogue. He and his wife Laya have eight children and it’s a delight to welcome him to the Good Life podcast today.

DS              Andrew, thank you for having me on the programme.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

KL              Kate Latimer

KL               If you can articulate what a good society is, then whether you like it or not, all your decisions will support that.

AL               My name is Andrew Leigh, and welcome to The Good Life, a politics-free podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full, with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We’ll chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers, about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, please take a moment to tell your friends or rate us on Apple Podcasts. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   Founded in 1993, the Cranlana is a non-partisan, not-for-profit organisation. The aim is to promote informed discussion on matters of responsible leadership and ethical practice. It’s trained thousands of business, community sector and public service leaders to think more carefully about values and justice. Drawing unashamedly on the Western canon, its graduates rave about the Cranlana approach and how it’s changed their lives.

                   But most Australians will never get to do the programme, so today’s episode looks to lift the lid on the Cranlana approach. What can each of us learn from a bunch of long-dead philosophers? How can reading ancient Greek plays help us live a better life?

                   My guest is Kate Latimer, who has been Cranlana’s Chief Executive Officer since 2009. A former journalist, documentary maker and public servant, she moved into the Cranlana programme from her work with high-level policymakers. Kate, welcome to the podcast.

KL               Thank you, Andrew. Pleasure to be here.

Speaker Key:

KM             Kate McClymont

AL              Andrew Leigh

KM             We are the eyes and ears of the public and we have a duty to keep doing the stories that we do, otherwise you might as well not be in the job.

AL               My name’s Andrew Leigh and welcome to The Good Life, a politics free podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. In this podcast we seek out wise men and women, who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full, with humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast, please take a moment to tell your friends or rate us on Apple Podcasts. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   Kate McClymont is one of Australia’s leading investigative journalists. She’s won five Walkley awards, delivered the prestigious Andrew Olle Lecture, and is a member of the Australian Media Hall of Fame. During her time investigating underworld figures she’s received insults, death threats, more since. But somehow she’s maintained her sense of humour, which is something we’ll explore today.

                   Now, this isn’t a political podcast, but Kate, before I start asking you questions, I have to make the point that no one who knows your work could miss the fact you’ve written a lot about political corruption. Including bypassed members of the Labour Party. So as somebody who’s been a member of the Labour Party for all of my adult life, thank you for that.

KM             I don’t know where they might be saying thank you for that.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

JD              Jihad Dib

JD              There’s that undercurrent of racism that runs that a lot of people don’t know. And if you raise it, they go, oh, come on, mate, toughen up. But when you walk in somebody’s shoes, then you know it.

AL               Good day, and welcome to The Good Life, Andrew Leigh in Conversation, a podcast about living a happier, healthier and more ethical life. Our society puts a lot of emphasis on smarts but not enough on wisdom. So this podcast seeks out wise people who can share their insights on passion, grit, love and empathy. We’ll discuss everything from sport to parenting, and hear the stories of some of the world’s wisest souls. If you enjoy the podcast, let your friends know so they can share the insights. Now let’s dive in to today’s conversation.

                   Jihad Dib is one of the nicest people you’ll ever meet. With the big smile and the ready laugh, he genuinely seems to like everyone he comes in contact with. It’s a trait that served him well for the seven years he spent as Principal of Punchbowl Boys High School, where he turned around the attitudes, test scores and physical character of a challenging school.

                   That led to Jihad assisting the Federal Government with the Empowering Local Schools programme, receiving a Pride in Australia Award and entering politics in 2015 as the member for Lakemba, the first Muslim MP to serve in the New South Wales Lower House. Aged 46, Jihad is married to Erin, a Japanese teacher, and the couple have three children. Jihad, welcome to The Good Life podcast.

JD              Well, thanks so much, Andrew. Thanks for inviting me on the podcast and for making it all the way to Sydney.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

JH              Jack Heath

JH              But that’s the scary thing is changing oneself, not necessarily even changing politics or countries or whatever, but doing the internal work is the really hard work.

AL               My name is Andrew Leigh, and welcome to The Good Life, a podcast about living a happy, healthy and ethical life. Although I’m a politician and an economist, this isn’t a podcast about politics or economics. It’s about living a good life, which is an idea that goes back to the Greek philosopher, Aristotle. What Aristotle meant by a good life was the life that one would like to live, a life with pleasure, meaning and richness of spirit, the life that most of us were trying to live until everything else got in the way.

                   In this podcast, I’ll seek out guests not because they’re smart but because they’re wise. I’ll speak with writers, athletes and social justice campaigners, with people who’ve been lucky and those who’ve experienced hard times. I found their stories fascinating and I hope you do too.

                   The thing that first strikes you about Jack Heath is that he’s calm, really calm, almost spookily calm. If I had to pick someone to sit next to me as our plane hurtled towards certain destruction, it would be a toss-up between my wife and Jack.

                   I first met Jack about 2001, when he was visiting the United States, and we had lunch at an Asian restaurant in Harvard Square. I loved hearing his stories about working for Paul Keating. I was intrigued about his shift into the world of suicide prevention, creating the Inspire Foundation, which runs the ReachOut.com youth mental health service. Four years ago, Jack became the CEO of SANE Australia.

                   But it was only as I’ve gotten to know Jack better that I’ve realised the most important thing about him isn’t his CV. It’s how he lives his life. Jack, thanks very much for joining me today.

JH              Thanks, Andrew.

Speaker Key:

AL              Andrew Leigh

FO              Frank Ostaseski

FO              I walked into the room and there was the mother and father, a few neighbours, friends of theirs, standing around this seven-year-old boy who died. And following my intuition, which I really trust, I went over to the side of the bed. And I leaned over, and I kissed this little boy on the forehead. And when I did that, the whole room broke into tears. Because while they had cared for him with tremendous love and great care actually, nobody had touched him since he died.

AL               My name’s Andrew Leigh, and welcome to The Good Life. A politics-free podcast about living a happy, healthy, and ethical life. In this podcast, we seek out wise men and women who have lessons to teach us about living life to the full. With humour, pleasure, meaning and love. We’ll chat with musicians and athletes, CEOs and carers, about making the most of this one precious life. If you like this podcast please take a moment to tell your friends or rate us on Apple Podcasts. Now, sit back and enjoy the conversation.

                   Frank Ostaseski is the co-founder of the Zen Hospice Project in San Francisco, which is the first Buddhist hospice in America. He's helped thousands of people die. Frank’s book, The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully, looks not only at what makes a good death but also how end of life can inform the rest of life. As he puts it, none of us get out of here alive. Frank, welcome to The Good Life podcast.

FO              Very nice to be with you. Happy to be with you and your listeners.